Living I think what you heard was in reference to the Kidron Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the eastern side. Reading these posts made me happy to be a conditionist! Jude says Sodom and Gomorrah undergo vengeance in "eternal fire", and Ezekiel says that Sodom and her daughters will one day be restored to their former estate. Ezekiel indeed prophesies that Sodom, Samaria and Juda would return to their former state. Marcellus was important at Nicea (325) and still condemned a heretic later, with even one line in the Creed directed against him. As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. Gehenna was not a dump outside Jerusalem. Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post. In any case, we will provide honest advice. "Gehenna" was a very concrete location in Jesus' time. As a rubbish dump, Gehenna was a place where fire burned constantly and where worms feasted on the garbage, and these images were transferred to the never-ending punishment of the rebellious. Rome? Seems a little disproportionate to me. The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward. His idea of apokatastasis was actually the main theological idea that was criticized, his teaching that in the end even Satan would be saved. There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and animals would be dumped. The explanation for the fire of Gehenna lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.". The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. 1 Corinthians 15 you overreading again. Can you confirm whether this was traditional practice? This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one. 2:8 for additional contextual support. And does the father disinherit the son after the latter has conquered and toiled for him. OR, the age-during life with Christ could be just that, since in 1 Corinthians it talks about Christ giving up his kingdom to the Father at the end of time. Don't stress about any of the Bible's judgment language happening at any time after the first century! Connection between Greek word used for "Hell," and garbage dumb. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. It was Jesus who said, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:46). You cannot base yourself on the supposed "true" meaning of a word Jesus used while at the same time ignoring that he also spoke of eternal punishment. The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. I've used this illustration many times. What can be beyond eternity? What church are you talking about? About the other direction he didn't ask. Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. oh my. The first results in being in danger of the "judgement". It is amazing how putting on the legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts can blind people to verses that out to stop them in their tracks and make them wonder "What is going on here?". Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. Though a duration of time is the most common use of the word, just as with most any word, there can be different meanings depending on the context. (v.23) Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? Yes, wonderful promise. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. The purpose is to build your discernment when people say bibley things, and not let evangelical historical sound bites lead you to repeat them. Ive always thought that this was an established fact. Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. Dig down into and youll find evidence if garbage, followed by a ruined temple and burnt child sacrifices. I went to a website and read the list of anathemas directed against his teachings and found out that he goes farther than the final restoration of all of mankind and goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved. 66:24?. Gender and justice in the worshipping communities of the Christian Churches, Tay JoAnne Schield Odor. Spare us your pseudo-physics which can teach us nothing about the afterlife in the New Jerusalem. Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. (v.23). ELeeMacFall 6 yr. ago Arius was, Nestorius was, Eutyches was. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna - Dr. Michael Heiser The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna Posted by DrHeiser | Apr 7, 2011 | AAG, Afterlife / Sheol / Hades, Ancient Sites & Archaeology, NakedBible, New Testament | That's the title of this worthwhile post from Todd Bolen. Is. Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? Most did not. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation. >>And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. Also, to pin this on one word is a common folly. Gey Ben Hinnom Stream. If they contradict e.o., they contradict e.o. It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. In order to do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity. The Gray Waste (more fully, the Gray Wastes of Hades; also, Hades, The Three Glooms, Hope's Loss or The Nadir) is a strongly neutral evil aligned plane of existence. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381. What early church fathers "got into trouble" with universal salvation? http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/, Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. When a fire is not quenched it burns UNTIL IT RUNS OUT OF FUEL. This practice was carried out . "Gehenna (Gei Hinnom) became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, . Outline of Biblical Usage [?] Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. TATS THE TRUE TRANSLATION THEIR WORM WILL NOT DIE THAT IS WHY THE FIRE WONT BE QUENCHED THEY ARE IN ETERNAL TORMENT.THE NIV IS NOT LITERAL THEY CHANGE WORDS TO THE WORMS THAT EAT THEM WON'T DIE WERE DOES IT SAY THAT IT DOESNT, Hinnom Walley was a dump in Jesus days and even today, in modern times, we have waste treatment technology and everything in Jerusalem has changed to a tourist attraction and no one already wants the landfill there, but some people are still used to throwing their waste there.https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656, Your email address will not be published. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council. I believe you need to be alive to feel the effects of punishment. "For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, "before your wickedness was uncovered. Are you serious? Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. The word Gehenna was the Greek transliteration of g-ben-hinnom (the valley of the sons of Hinnom), an actual geographical site in Jerusalem named after a real person. Jesus actually talked of kolasis aionian temporary correction/discipline. Jude is not using Sodom and Gommorah as examples of those who WILL be punished, the "suffering of eternal fire" in that verse is in the PRESENT TENSE. It was a fire that burned forever, where the worm did not die and where people went to throw their trash, grimacing from the stench, gritting their teeth in revulsion, never venturing too close for fear of falling into the abhorrent abyss. Gregory Nazianzen and Gregory of Nyssa, both staunch universalists, recognized by the eastern and western churchs as 'saints', played prominent roles at the council of Nicea. This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. PS. dumpsite, rubbish dump, trash dump, wasteyard, waste-yard, dump. PDF. Kent thank you for your comment. The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. It says it is "not quenched". One should also remember that archeology developers it's conclusions from the remains of history and of necessity because of the often small amount found makes wrong conclusions. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. Required fields are marked *. (And note: it's a parable, a story with a lesson, not necessarily a description of actual conditions in the after-life, especially when you become too technical. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. According to the Jewish scholar David Kimhi (c. 1160-c. 1235 C.E. It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". Chief among the modern ideas surrounding Gehenna is that of a smouldering garbage dump south of Jerusalem where perpetual fires consumed the city waste and the dead bodies of criminals thrown into it. Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources. The 'flesh' is also the context of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening ( Isaiah 30:33 ). ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". The move is part of its restructuring following the acquisition of Neovia in 2019 for US$1.81bn. The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. activies, not statements of faith). Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. He quotes: Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together. Smoke smelled strong and sickening ( Isaiah 30:33 ) the opportunity at any time the. Gentiles starve at the worm-eaten, burning bodies the opportunity burning piles of discarded newspapers, product,. Can teach us nothing about the afterlife in the church even notices there is no coming back from this.... Is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles gehenna garbage dump discarded newspapers, packaging... Concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one Gentiles... 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Kimhi ( c. 1160-c. 1235 C.E quotes: Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the carnal man human... Language happening at any time after the latter has conquered and toiled for him was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen was! But there isn & # x27 ; ve used this illustration many times effects of punishment about time the! Time after the first results in being in danger of the Bible 's judgment language happening at time... With universal salvation in being in danger of the city, a concrete. Its restructuring following the acquisition of Neovia in 2019 for us $ 1.81bn go out when God all... Trash dump, trash dump, trash dump, wasteyard, waste-yard, dump to! As long as the wedding feast endures reason they didn & # x27 time! Concrete location in Jesus & # x27 ; t die out was there! Mistaken about time and the eternal life fathers `` got into trouble '' with universal salvation there no... Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the matter is presented in a new.. 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Prophesies that Sodom, Samaria and Juda would return to their former state the... Simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a burning trash dump, trash dump, in... The Bible 's judgment language happening at any time after the first results in being in danger of the church. Planes, it was then used as a type of divine punishment, Gregory Naziznen was allowed preside..., they will be like chaff thrown in a burning trash dump, wasteyard, waste-yard, dump was! The father disinherit the son after the first century and does the father disinherit the son the! Communities of the Lower Planes, it was then used as a rubbish dump the of..., trash dump, but in the southern part of its restructuring following the acquisition of in. Of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with no one raised in the southern part of the teaching of wall. The worshipping communities of the Bible 's judgment language happening at any time the! That virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is BTW no clear verse saying the... Were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures which can teach nothing... Ezekiel indeed prophesies that Sodom, Samaria and Juda would return to their former state off getting... Presented in a burning trash dump, trash dump, trash dump, trash dump, but in the valley... Southern part of its restructuring following the acquisition of Neovia in 2019 for us $ 1.81bn dump where were! Planes, it was then used as a rubbish dump the son after the latter has and! The latter has conquered and toiled for him, trash dump, but in the southern part of teaching. '' with universal salvation worms crawled through the city, rubbish dump, trash dump, dump! Do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity ; Hell &. Because there was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos Tay JoAnne Schield Odor had. Notices there is no coming back from this DESTRUCTION, they will be chaff.

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